S3E5 of Tatreez Talk: Clay and Thread with Pam Totah
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Tatreez has long been a symbol of Palestinian identity, resilience, and storytelling. In our latest podcast episode, we sat down with Pam to explore the intersection of tatreez and ceramics, weaving together the threads of tradition and the art of clay. From embroidered motifs etched into pottery to the deeper meaning behind working with our hands, this conversation celebrates the power of creativity in preserving culture.
Pam shares her journey of discovering tatreez and how it became a way to connect with her roots. She reflects on the beauty of bringing this embroidery tradition into new mediums, like pottery, allowing the patterns and stitches to take on new forms. Whether through clay or fabric, the essence remains the same—telling stories, honoring the past, and creating for the future.
We also discuss the importance of building with and for our people. Pam reminds us that creativity is a form of resistance, and whether you’re stitching or shaping clay, these acts hold power. If you’ve ever been curious about blending tatreez with other crafts, she encourages you to start experimenting—because every stitch and every mark carries a legacy worth preserving.
Episode Shownotes
PAM IS A PALESTINIAN CERAMIC TATREEZ ARTIST AND ACTIVIST (@totahstudio). Pam shares how tatreez connects her to Palestinian heritage, preserving stories and fostering community, especially in the diaspora. She reflects on the joys and challenges of learning tatreez, from selecting patterns to its meditative nature.
The conversation explores tatreez in modern contexts, from fashion to activism, and its resilience in preserving identity. Pam emphasizes the power of creating with and for your people and encourages those curious about blending tatreez with other mediums to take the first step and experiment.
Check out her work and order a piece on her website!
You’ll hear about:
>> 1:20: Pam’s connection to Palestine
>> 3:45: Palestinian identity growing up in the Bay Area
>> 6:58: Tatreez origin story and translating it to pottery
>> 14:25: How to part with your art
>> 18:21: Pam’s tatreez style with ceramics
>> 22:12: Impact of the Gaza genocide
>> 29:15: Building with and for the Palestinian people
>> 32:30: Stocking stores and collaborating with Mom
>> 36:53: Words of wisdom on exploring incorporating tatreez in other art mediums
>> 39:38: Tatreez life lessons
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Transcript
Lina: Hi stitchers! Welcome to Tatreez Talk where we share conversations about Palestinian embroidery. I'm Lina here with my co-host Amani, chatting with talented embroiderers and artists sharing their stories, inspirations, and the cultural significance behind their work.
Amanne: On today's episode. We are chatting with one of my friends, Pam from Totah Studios. She is a Palestinian American ceramic artist. You have definitely seen her beautiful work online. And she is a local activist here in the San Francisco Bay Area. Welcome to talk, Pam. We're excited to have you.
Pam: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Lina: Oh, yeah, and I love your ceramics. My husband loves your ceramics. And actually, Pam, I didn't mention it earlier, but I actually got a message this morning of a friend in space in Seattle. And she was like, you guys, look at this kick-ass like artist pottery, ceramic work, and I'm like I know her, and I'm about to talk to her. So you're on your way to getting famous.
Pam: I'm on my way. Let it spread, let it spread.
Lina: Yes!
Pam: Yeah.
Lina: The word speaks for itself
Lina: exactly. Exactly. Well, Pam, we always like to kick off with asking our guests a little bit about you and your family's connection to Palestine.
Pam: So I mean, I'm my. Both of my parents are Palestinian. My mom was born in the States, but lived back home most of her life, and my dad was born there as well. But I'm 1st generation, or I guess, 1.5 generation depending how you look at it, and
Pam: you know, grew up
Pam: around all of it, like our families, totally assimilated, but also like very much we're like, we're in the Bay Area. So for anybody in the Bay Area or in any of those centers. And there's like very populous centers around the United States.
Pam: We grew up around the Arab, specifically Palestinians, and then my family specifically is from Ramallah. So I grew up like
Pam: in the Ramallah Club, like surrounded by tons of family tons of extended like Ramallah family, and then just kind of generally being influenced by Palestine like through everything like. I remember being probably how old was I during. I was very little during the 1st Intifada, but like going to protest that little and like being tossed into debke classes, I would not be caught dead on a stage today, but at 10 years old I was like dancing my little debke, and like
Pam: you know, the threes and the works all around my mom's house and being forced to do it as girls like me and my sisters like.
Pam: I think I've seen even I think one of you or somebody else has shared like that. This is how we started doing the threes as kids. And there are 2 things that I did, and I was like, oh, my God! I've seen these also in other people's things online, where it's the little like Teddy Bear, and it's not even cross stitch. But it's like the Teddy bear, with like the checkered background, and then the cross stitch girl with like the umbrella, and I was like I've seen other people post it, and I was like you grew up in the eighties, and your mom made you stitch.
Amanne: It's the the pre printed ones are always like.
Pam: Exactly.
Amanne: Here because I'm like, yes, go ahead and stitch, girl.
Pam: We all we all did the all did them as kids. But yeah.
Pam: yeah, I mean, but that's the gist of it. I think. Like most of us, grew up in the diaspora, we, like our parents.
Pam: ended up settling places that had community, family, etc, and just kind of
Pam: it was always part of my life.
Amanne: Yeah. And so I know. Obviously, like, I grew up in a a similar community. As you. Obviously, we're we're we're we're neighbors.
Pam: Yeah.
Amanne: But I would love to hear from you about how you know, even though you grew up in diaspora, you did grow up in a large Palestinian community, you had access to a lot of Palestinian culture. So what was that experience like for you being a Palestinian diaspora and growing up? And how did that shape your Palestinian identity?
Pam: That's a very good question.
Pam: I mean it shaped, I think, like me as a person not just in terms of Palestinian identity. But you know, and I've mentioned this, probably in my posts and things like that online where
Pam: I've been
Pam: like literally in my house. It was all like the trees and camels, and this is from Ramallah, and people come to visit, and there's like your house is filled with it. So you instantly know, and your mom's got books. So when you've got like a school report, it's like, Oh, let's write this thing on. I think I even one day I did a report on Hanan Ashrawi like 30 years ago I was when I was 2 years old, and so it was. It was just very much like.
Pam: how do I put this?
Pam: I once told a friend that everything I do and live and breathe is Palestinian like that's entwined in all of it, like I had a friend who wasn't Palestinian, and she was just like, Why are you always talking about Palestine? Why are you this? And it was annoying to them, and I was like.
Pam: in fact, then I don't think I know how to. I knew how to answer it, but it's like growing up now. And now just building a career out of and abandoning everything else I had tried to do.
Pam: You kind of realize this literally is.
Pam: where's the one like lost for my words
Pam: it is who I am to the very core like this is how I grew up like my parents didn't even teach us Arabic when we were kids, and then when we were 6, I was 6, she we were back home, and Mom's like we just heard you talking to your cousins in Arabic, and like, somehow, you had picked it up with us. So when we took you back home, you're sitting talking. We're like.
Pam: where did she learn how to speak, you know. So it's like like it's who I am. It's always been who I am, and I think, even as I've gotten older in terms of using like shaping my identity. I've always had, you know, you grew up in the Bay Area. So your friends are like international like this is such a such a diverse place, where I've had every ethnicity of friend growing up. But as I've gotten older, that's very much dwindled down to like Arabs and Palestinians, and then, of course, like the last 15 months.
Pam: it's like, I only want to talk to Palestinians. So people get it, you know, but it's it's very much because, like.
Pam: I think, as I get older, it's very obvious that this is the core part of me, and then everything else just comes. Secondary.
Pam: Yeah.
Lina: Yeah, no, totally. I think all of us have felt very similarly. There have been a lot of people I forgot I was friends with over the last year and a half.
Lina: because there is just like no time, no energy, no nothing to spend on anyone who doesn't even is curious, I guess about it. So totally.
Pam: Yeah, but also not just curious. But it's like I've had lifelong friends that I've talked about, who, like you would. Everybody's like this is my friend Pam. She's the Palestinian Pam, the Palestinian Pam, the Palestinian like. Whether I said it or not, my other friends would know it, and I've got friends who would introduce me as such, who to this day would probably not know much about Palestine like, and they'd have to ask me. And I'm just like, after all these years of friendship. I don't feel that we are friends if you haven't.
Pam: If you didn't get it like, I spent my life online educating people, you know. So it's kind of the I don't. I don't have the time to educate you, and if you haven't been paying attention, I don't have time for this anymore.
Lina: 100%.
Lina: Yes.
Lina: So how did you begin your journey? Because it is also very much infused in what you do now.
Pam: Yeah, so it's kind of popped up throughout my life like I said, like all of us, our moms made us stitch. So it was me, and she's got 3 girls. So we were all like stitching, and my mom's stitched her whole life, whether it was to threes, or, you know, doing Christmas trees and things like that for the holidays and
Pam: but it never really stuck when I was a kid, and like, I think by the time I was 12 or 13 all my embroidery floss turned into like
Pam: friendship. Bracelet strings very big into those at like 12 or 13, and then I kind of just dropped it for many years, but I was obsessed with like my mom's stuff, like I'd always steal her like pillows and her like vintage clothing like my mom's never had a thob. She has like a skirt and a shirt, and like a little zip up, go go, dress, and things like that. So like I've always taken them. I've worn them.
Pam: I've stolen them permanently now, and like
Pam: just always loved the art, but never had the patience to do it again. And then, in
Pam: 2013, I moved to Ramallah, and I was working for some local and international organizations, and the 1st place I landed was we were working with a small Women's Cooperative in Hebron, and you know they were doing tatreez purses and things like that, and I was like
Pam: man. I should do this, so I would like sit after work, and I'd start like designing accessories and clothing with the trees, and I was like, maybe I'll start a company, and I'll do this, and I'll import stuff to the States. I'm going to stay in Ramallah like I went to Ramallah for 3 months, and I stayed for 4 years, so it was like one of those like, maybe I'll just stay here and I'll do some more, you know.
Pam: And I still have those drawings, though I never did anything with it. And if any of you know me.
Pam: people who follow me on my Instagram and my friends and family. Now I have a thousand ideas every day, and I kind of just don't do much with it, but like it stays so. I still have those little designs I made
Pam: 12 years ago, 11 years ago.
Pam: and move back to the States back in 2017.
Pam: And
Pam: didn't want to work didn't want to do much, so when I started doing pottery, it was kind of like a I just need a break. So it was kind of it was supposed to be date night with my best friend. She signed us up for pottery classes. We did it. And then 5 min later, I was like, I'm going to put the threes on it like it was just like a I didn't even have to think about it. It took me probably like a year or 2 to like. Figure out how I wanted to get the threes on it like. I tried the stamping, and I tried the carving. And I tried all these like random things until I finally got the technique that I ended up with
Pam: which I'm still changing up. But it's fine. And yeah. And it took me maybe like a year to actually like show a piece, because I was like, always like like
Pam: your Ju, your people judge you the most, or you think they do.
Amanne: It's like it.
Pam: Are they going to judge me, or are they all going to be like? La, la! Thankfully they all said, la, la! And I have a hard time keeping up with stuff. But like that was, it was kind of like a no brainer for me like. Instantly, when I started learning all these other pottery techniques. It was like, Oh, maybe I'll make tiles. It was between the threes and the tiles from Navis, because I also my whole kitchen, and Ramallah is now those tiles, too, so I'm like, I have an obsession. I'll be playing with tiles sooner than later.
Pam: But I was looking at like Japanese, like narakomi techniques. To like makes these blocks with the Tetris patterns and then slice them into tiles. And, like all these.
Amanne: Way more complicated than what I'm doing right now. It's coming one cool.
Pam: It's coming one day I'll figure it out, but it definitely takes a lot more skill than I've got. And yeah, it was just
Pam: there we are.
Amanne: 6, of.
Pam: On my 1st little pot a friend of mine bought it. It's in Hawaii now. I still remember who bought my 1st pieces, and
Pam: that next Christmas everybody was like Gimme gimme! So I made as many little things as I could, and then
Pam: I was like, I think I don't need to work a real job anymore. I can go do this
Pam: still kind of a lie. Because I, as you know, Amani, yeah.
Pam: enough that I procrastinate. So I'm like, oh, I don't have any inventory. Maybe I should work now, but we're getting there.
Amanne: The struggle of an artist with too many. I too many good ideas. That's the that's always the.
Pam: Yeah.
Amanne: Problem right.
Pam: Very much. So, yeah.
Amanne: It's interesting, too, you said like kind of instantly you were like, oh, I got to put the threes on this right, and you know your art is so much of a representation of your identity which is essentially like what the threes is as an art, too. Right? It's a story. It's a form of storytelling. How do you translate like that? These storytelling into your ceramic work.
Pam: So honestly at 1st it was like a I'm going to copy my mom's stuff like it wasn't even about
Pam: like I was like, I'm not that poetic. I'm not that like I didn't think that much through it. So I was just staring at my mom, for example, like my pillow vase like the first.st It wasn't the 1st thing I did, but actually the 1st little planter I made had a piece of the from that pillow is the pattern on it. And then what I ended up calling my pillow vase
Pam: was actually just straight. I called it the pillow face, because it was a pattern for my mom's pillows. So it was like it had not. I was like not like, Oh, let me like tell a story, and let me, you know. Even that shape was an accident, because I was making a vase for a Christmas gift, and it fell over, and I was like, well, now it's going to be squished face, and it's going to work in life. And it turned out to be one of my most popular shape faces. 3 years later.
Pam: The accidents work sometimes, and then as I started making other pieces.
Pam: sometimes it was just a very random thing, and sometimes I put a lot of thought into them like my lean up planter. For example, I had a friend I hadn't talked to for a really long time, reached out to me one day saying how like she loved my stuff, and when she could afford to, she wanted to buy them. And and I was just like, Well, you know whenever you can, and she kind of broke down. I didn't talked to her in more than a decade, and she started sending me a message about how she had just gone through divorce and an abusive husband, and she was taking care of her girls. And like all this stuff, so I like literally just like started crying, went to the garage, and I like
Pam: made the Lena planter, and I was like, I'm going to make this. I'm just going to send it to her like you've got one of my pieces. You're going to pay for it. So some of them and it's got like it's like the shape of a woman. And it's this little planter, and it's like a really subtle
Pam: feminine shape, and it's got the rainbow pattern on it, Rainbow, for obvious reasons, and then I like sprayed it in like a
Pam: in a glaze that kind of had like a gold sheen to it. So it's kind of like a. I think this is self-explanatory, and I was like, and this is for my Lena, like whatever you go. So some of them do that, or like my my! My little! Where is it? I can't see it. I wear my heart on my face, planter, like I just started making a little face, and then I was like, Well, what should I put on it? Because sometimes it's like that it was like, I have a plan, and sometimes I don't. And so like I made the planter, and then I was like.
Pam: what shall I put? And I was like, oh, string of hearts! I wear my heart on my face because I don't do my heart on my sleeve. Mine's like literally on my face. I can't hide my expressions, my emotions. Who I am is like like I can't lie. I can't fake it. I can't like, you know. And so that one was very much like an expression of me and how I am. So I'm like laughing because some just came out of the kiln. There's like glaze defects on the face where, like the glaze popped off, and there's like some spots missing. And I was like, this is kind of poetic, for where most of us, including myself, are right now, or
Pam: that's real.
Amanne: It's just falling apart.
Pam: Yeah.
Amanne: 0.
Pam: Yeah, even even though I did not intend it. I was like, yeah, that works too.
Lina: But there's definitely stories in there like that's.
Pam: Our story, but I said some of them yes, like some of them like, this pattern, or look cute on it, or let me just do this and some. It's like they came together in this way. So it definitely varies.
Lina: Okay, random question, because I'm Manny and I have talked about this. I'm a very selfish artist, if you will. I don't like giving my stuff, you know. Like, if I'm going to spend this much time on it, I'm going to keep it for myself. How do you part with your pieces because they are gorgeous.
Pam: So.
Pam: Pottery, I think, at least for me, is a little is a little different, but it's also a little sad. So my very 1st pieces of pottery, non stuff like were hideous. So I was like, yes, please take them out of my face like my sisters hated me in the beginning because I was like, Hello, niece and nephews like, would you like this
Pam: thing that was supposed to be a bowl, but looks like a floppy hat like, here you go. So like, I developed a habit of just kind of like, that's fine. Take this and gifting things to people all the time. And so when I started with the three's pieces, and people wanted to give me money for them.
Pam: Actually, people are giving money before I was doing to these. But like people want to give me money for it. I was like, well, yes, I have some bills to pay so quick little things here and there. And then I'm like, I need pots for all of my plants, like, here's the I've had a hard time parting with my planters, because many time, like, okay, nursery pots aren't working anymore. Let's make. I'm gonna make myself this gorgeous planter case in point where we decide
Pam: planter.
Pam: This is the only one of my plants that has a planter right now, because it cracked on the bottom. So I got to keep it so now
Pam: the only pieces of mine that I actually own, with the exception of the face, one
Pam: are messed up like they have a crack, some major defect, or I'm like, I don't need to sell it, or I can't sell it, or whatever. But everything else it's been like. Oh, the holidays are coming! I did make myself these 3 planters, but people will pay a good penny for them and let them give a Christmas gift to somebody, and I'll make myself something later. So it's like I've I've learned the I can part with it because I can make myself another one, and then, of course, I never do.
Pam: So I just keep my defects.
Pam: and like when this one came out of the kiln's big old crack at the bottom, I was like, yes, cause you're gorgeous, and I don't have to even think about letting you go like.
Amanne: It's a win-win. It's a win.
Pam: It's a win-win.
Amanne: It still get gets used. It gets a beautiful home, and you get to keep one of your people.
Pam: Yeah.
Pam: Yeah. But also, like my planter doesn't take nearly as long as a chest panel.
Amanne: Yeah.
Pam: So if I dedicated thousands of hours to something, and I would be like, you're gonna have to pay me 1 million dollars to get rid of.
Amanne: Yeah.
Pam: Definitely be like.
Amanne: Yeah, no. Totally doing techniques on ceramics. Probably quicker. I wouldn't. I won't say it's easier because I find ceramics difficult.
Pam: Tedious.
Amanne: But it's definitely quicker, I would imagine.
Pam: It's it's much. It's much quicker
Pam: just all the respect to people who actually do to trees, because, as you know, like, I came 20 or to 3 circles, a couple of them, actually. And I've tried. I still haven't finished the the kit I bought from you, because I'm just like.
Amanne: We're all okay. We'll we'll work on it.
Pam: I'll get it one day we'll.
Amanne: Yeah.
Pam: To it. But I have started doing
Pam: I'm practicing with. So back in May I had an art show with the Arab Film festival, and I put a piece in there because I and I had just figured out how to get actual like
Pam: to 3 years like string on the pot without a backing.
Pam: It's a little like it looked a little bit funky, but it still totally worked, and I was like this cross stitch, and I got it on so that pot sold. I planned on keeping it, but you know, highest bidder. She has a good home.
Pam: but I'm working on that, too. So I'm really slow. So I'm trying to.
Amanne: Day.
Pam: Because I'm like to do one survey. It takes me like a half an hour to an hour, and my mom's like that'll take me 5 min I was like. Then you go make it for me.
Amanne: Yeah, seriously.
Pam: I was like. So I have so much respect for everybody who's actually doing the doing the stitching. I can't. I can't.
Amanne: How did you discover like what your the 3 style was? Gonna be for ceramics?
Pam: I think it kind of just happened once I figured out the technique.
Pam: because it hasn't evolved much. It's got gotten smaller. But like I said, like I was, I was trying different things like that narakomi which wouldn't have had anything to do with the wheel, throwing everything I do. Almost everything I do is done on the wheel now. But with the narakomi technique. I wasn't even thinking about the wheel throwing aspect. I was thinking about building it with slabs and pieces.
Pam: and then I tried like, I remember I even bought at 1 point. I still have them hideous
Pam: square hole punchers in different sizes, because I was gonna be a lunatic, and like.
Amanne: Punch them all out.
Pam: Punch patterns like, but and I will. I tried. There are a few pieces that I had made that way, so I just kind of was playing around and like, you know, all new potters. If any potter here knows this like
Pam: once, you're when you're a new potter, everything is cool, so you're just like gobbling up info. And you're following everybody. And you're watching Youtube videos. And you're learning new techniques constantly. So every time I saw a new technique. I was like, how can I apply this to
Pam: until I found the technique that I am using? And I was just like, this is gonna work. I also hate myself for discovering it, because it's so tedious. And I'm just like, why.
Lina: Wait, can you.
Pam: Done.
Lina: Can you share what the technique is like? I'm trying to imagine.
Pam: So I don't talk much about the technique.
Lina: Okay.
Pam: Have a few people who've.
Lina: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.
Pam: I wish I could, and I will eventually, when I'm famous and I'm not worried about people stealing my thunder. I'm going to be like this is how it's actually, it's really simple. It's nothing special. Potter is probably all know how I do it. But I'm just like I'm going to slow. The copycats down just a little bit.
Lina: You can definitely, definitely, definitely.
Pam: Yeah.
Pam: yeah, but yeah, it just had like it. It kind of developed on its own. It wasn't like A, and I was like this is kind of a nice look that I like, and then we just can
Pam: kept going from there. But I'm always like I get not bored. I get bored making the same thing over and over again. So like I will change the pots, and I'll do the this and that, whatever. But that's why I was like, can I put actual embroidery on the pots? So I'm playing with that and trying to get it perfected a little bit better. Playing.
Amanne: So I have some ideas for you. When I come back from my trip we could.
Pam: Talk I have yeah
Pam: one I've tried and it works. I just want to make it look better. And the other one, I'm gonna try this weekend? And
Pam: yeah, and I think we start playing more tile patterns and things like that, too, and kind of get into that.
Amanne: Please, please.
Pam: I already made. I made some earrings with tile patterns and some soap dishes with the tile pattern, but I haven't I've been so like obsessed with the that I keep
Pam: again too many ideas.
Amanne: Yeah, have you? Have you taught classes before? Like, have you.
Pam: I.
Amanne: Pottery and like specific. I mean, I'm assuming you have not taught like anything about like deputies.
Pam: That city is pottery. No, but I've done. I've for the last 4 or so years I've been teaching wheel throwing classes.
Amanne: Okay. Okay, alright, we'll have to. We'll have to give people that info anyone who's local, who wants.
Pam: Yeah. Hit me lottery.
Amanne: Okay. I'm also curious, I know, like, you know, we have kind of talked a little bit about this over the like last year and a half, or whatever it's, however long it's been now. But
Amanne: you know your Palestinian identity. As you said, it's like really at the core of who you are right, and we have all been sitting here, unfortunately, being forced to watch this genocide from a distance in diaspora, and oftentimes art is a way that artists can communicate
Amanne: so many of their feelings, and I know for you your art is definitely a means for that, and I would love to hear from you how this genocide has really like
Amanne: changed your art, or even your just approach, or how you view creating your art.
Pam: Good question.
Pam: When things started up last year
Pam: I had signed I was like I had just kind of like
Pam: sort of quit my job like take. I was doing sales, and I took myself off the calendar because I was like, Hello! So I'm going to pursue pottery full time.
Pam: And I did that in August of 2023,
Pam: and focused on prepping for Palestine Day and Palestine day came and went that September, and I said, well, I'm gonna take more time off of work, and that's it. And I signed up for a really big holiday market. And I was like, I'm gonna try the American white market and see all my stuff dues and like, Let's do this does and like, let's do this. And
Pam: October 7th happened, and I did nothing.
Pam: I canceled my markets and I did nothing. And then
Pam: I forgot when I actually reached out to you, probably like
Pam: November. I don't know. A month or.
Amanne: I think I think we met in like September.
Pam: We met.
Amanne: What's a.
Pam: We met the week before Palestine day or something, I was at a thing. Yeah, that's right. You you bought a Lena planter.
Amanne: Yes, that is at my grandmother's home right.
Pam: Well, I love it. My stuff is all over the world.
Amanne: Yes.
Pam: And so I did nothing. And then I was like, Well, I gotta do something, so let me kind of
Pam: screw the bill paying part, but it actually like, let me use my work to do something for Palestine. So I'd reached out to you, and I was like, help me with a Gaza pattern to put on this vase. And I did that.
Pam: I raised practically no money, and I got some people to call Congress. It was
Pam: whatever, and my cousin won the vase because she was an insane person and made a spreadsheet for all of Congress, and did her thing, made a thousand calls, but
Pam: It did not cheer me up, and I think there are some artists who throw themselves into this is fun. It's when I learned I'm an artist. I think I learned it a few years earlier, but it has never been as reinforced as it has been in the last year. Some artists throw themselves into work, and they can produce produce, because that's where they put their energy. And for me.
Pam: I just want to crawl into bed and die and so
Pam: I did not do much until I kind of like had to, and I'm not even sure when, like I'd make a little bit here, and I'd make a little bit there. I think the 1st time I actually like did a big run of pieces was
Pam: like February or March. They did like a little Arab American festival, and I was like, Let's make stuff. And so for me it's been very much like, Oh, there's an event. Let me like push, push, and by push, push, I mean, I'll do like 3 months of work in 2 weeks like kill myself, and then just crash and burn as soon as it's done. And that's that's been how I've worked for the last like year, plus
Pam: So I'm really tired. I just finished another like couple of big events, and I'm just like holidays coming. I just updated my shop and I'm like, Pick what you want. I barely have anything I feel bad for people who want to buy gifts, but it's also kind of like Bleh. And then I've also very much had the
Pam: I've been watching in the last year, as most of us have been, and we've kind of talked about this. And we've both posted about stuff like this on our social media about how people have seen genocide as
Pam: an opportunity to make money, and so
Pam: I always tiptoe around. I don't want to appear to be one of those people, even though I've been doing my pottery and my on it for several years. There's this part of me that feels very icky making money with anything related to Palestine.
Pam: And so I've had to navigate that. And like, that's also part of me, like, I just want to sit here and I'm gonna do nothing, and I'll figure out other ways to like
Pam: pay my bills, you know, and so it's gone up and down, and actually, at an event, we had a Middle East Children's Alliance fundraiser. On Saturday
Pam: I sold a bunch of stuff, and you know the people flocking, and these non-arabs just like decked out in like red triangle earrings and kufiyas, and just everything possible that they found in a watermelon shirt. She bought it, and it's kind of like, oh, my God, you're so gross! And then they come and they buy my stuff, and it's like, Thank you for buying my stuff. And I was talking to one of the other vendors, and he was like.
Pam: don't look at this as you're making money off of Palestine like this is your work. This is your craft. You've put a lot into it like you're honoring your culture and let them give you money, and the better you do, the more you'll have to support people back home. And this was literally just as of Saturday. And I was like
Pam: I needed that. I needed that. Here we go. But also like I needed that so definitely like.
Pam: yeah, it's been hard. But I and I'm certain I'm not the only one, because I've had these conversations with a lot of other people where it's like, especially we're working in our
Pam: when you're working on stuff, Palestine related. It's like, How do you
Pam: celebrate that culture and not feel like you're making money off of that.
Amanne: Yeah, yeah, I think that's really, honestly, I think it's really important for you to say that, too, because I think a lot of people feel that way. There's a lot of people who feel guilt around being able to just exist freely in our Palestinian identity. There's a lot of us, you know again, especially Palestinians. We are so tied to our identity, no matter where we are in the world. And
Amanne: for a lot of artists, that means that our Palestinian identity translates into our art whether it is tatreez or whether it's ceramics. I know I have painters. I know you know, different types of artists that use their Palestinian identity within their medium. And
Amanne: you know, I think it's very valid and real that
Amanne: it's difficult. It's it's difficult in so many different ways, you know. Like you said not. Everyone can just go go, go, go! Everyone has a different way to deal with it. And you know the the complex feelings, too, of
Amanne: seeing people who have never really been outspokenly pro-Palestinian who are now pro-Palestinian like. There's a big part of you that's grateful for that. And then another part of you like that can be resentful of that, too.
Pam: Well, it's the capitalism aspect.
Amanne: Yeah.
Pam: Because I feel like a lot of people like put on a or buy one of like my resistance earrings and are like, Look, I did something for Palestine now it's like, Thank you.
Pam: But like, if that and I kind of feel like people do, that they think that's enough. And I was like, that's not enough. This is great yet. Yes, support all of us. Show it off. Talk about it cool.
Pam: But are you doing something else? And maybe they are. I don't know. I'm course not, having conversations with every person that's buying stuff, but.
Amanne: Yeah.
Pam: I'm an American, and I know how we are. I I myself am guilty of being that person in a lot of ways, too, and so it's kinda
Pam: I'm sure not. All of them are doing enough. I don't feel like I'm doing most days, either, so you know.
Amanne: We haven't started.
Pam: Evolution. We're not doing enough.
Lina: I know, I mean. And then the other half of the problem is like nobody knows what to do. So it's like, you're we're stuck in this awful cycle of like wanting to do something, and then figure knowing that we don't know what to do. And then we want to do something, and it's just a cycle right? Goes back and forth. You know something something that you mentioned in, like the form that you filled out before the recording
Lina: was around like building your work with your own people would love to kind of hear more about that, because I think it's it's obviously tied to this. But you're just curious about what that means to you, and how you would describe it.
Pam: Yeah, so I think something has slowly shifted in me. And like I said, even when it comes to my friends right? These are like the people that I connect with, and I relate to the most. And I've really, in the last 2, 3 months thought about who and how I want to build with
Pam: and
Pam: kind of like we. We rise together like, if I'm doing well, you're going to do well, and let's figure out how to do that together. And so several months ago, I
Pam: just was like the only people I want to work with are Palestinians like, I just want to go and reach out to Palestinian restaurants, chefs, blah, blah, whatever it might be, and only make for them. And with them, if this is, how many do it like people were like, are you going to be production? Potter? Are you going to be an artist? You're going to be whatever it's like? I can be, both because production is where I'll make my money. But like the one off pieces is what I really enjoy doing. And so
Pam: to balance that, here's how I'm going to do it. And it's like.
Pam: if I'm going to be a consistent maker and build a business. I can't let the emotion part get in the way. And so for me.
Pam: the natural answer to that was, do it with your people like these are the only people you're drawn to. These are people you want to help. These are the people you want help from. And like.
Pam: if we're going to grow, it's got to be with us like building each other up and so
Pam: I'm making pieces for my friend's restaurant in San Francisco who's like my loft lung like known for over 20 years since I was in college and
Pam: I've watched him build himself up from like bartender to.
Amanne: This for some. Is this for Samir's restaurant?
Pam: No.
Amanne: Open. Oh, okay.
Pam: Oh, no, but I've talked to them.
Amanne: Okay.
Pam: Nothing's nothing's happening. But they're like we would love to. And I was like, Let's talk. But we even talked because they're busy, and so am I. But no, it's for Freekeh in San Francisco. And my, yeah, it's a really good restaurant. Highly recommend Freekeh, San Francisco. Yeah, amazing food. And they, too, like their families from Gaza, and they've like struggled for like. I don't even know anybody in Gaza like directly. I used to have colleagues there, but I don't have friends and family that are in there, and like, I've fallen apart when I've got like friends from Gaza who are like.
Pam: I'm like, okay, like, you're functioning, I can function. And then how do we all function together? And so I was like, I want to make stuff for your restaurant. And he was like perfect timing.
Pam: like, I actually need these new things. And I was like dope. So now I'm figuring out how to make stuff for restaurants that are like restaurant quality and like oven safe, etc. So he'll be my 1st one and talking to a couple of others, which is good.
Pam: But yeah, it was kind of like, my, this is who I want to build with. And this is how and
Pam: hopefully, we can make that work. And I think we can. I also have my stuff in reams in San Francisco, and she's had them there for several months. So that's good.
Pam: But that happened before I made the decision. So it's kind of like, perhaps planting the seed. But yeah.
Amanne: Natural, trajectory.
Pam: It's a natural trajectory. It's like how like we've it's the screw, this divide and conquer crap. It's like unite and
Pam: freaking. Build it up and hold on to whatever we've got at this point, too, because times are scary.
Amanne: Definitely. Do you see yourself eventually, like having your work a bit more available in different stores and boutiques?
Amanne: That's like definitely a goal for you.
Pam: For me. It's hard right now, because if anybody saw the way I work like I live in a 600 square foot apartment, and there's a 1 car garage. Well, there's a 5 car garage, but my stall is my studio, and I don't have my own kiln, so like I do my throwing, and all the messy clay work there, most of like my work and glazing stuff is done in my kitchen and living room so like when it's production time. Like.
Pam: I have a bedroom and a studio is basically, yeah.
Pam: I don't like, it's just it's utter chaos. And it can be really stressful, too, and then, because my landlord won't let me put a kiln, and I don't really have space for one, either. To keep up when it's like production time for me. I'm at 3 different studios. So I like drive things everywhere so like the loss of pieces, the time of driving and picking up and dropping off. It's really time consuming. And so it kind of holds up my ability to
Pam: make things in a more economical way. So eventually, yes, I do want to be in more places. Reem's, like as far as locally Reem's and Sense's Homegoods have had my stuff.
Pam: and yeah, and I've got I've sold wholesale a couple of times to some friends of mine who do cacao in Hawaii, and they've shipped by things all over the world, which is super cool. They were like some of the 1st ones to get
Pam: everywhere. Yeah, I was like, like, within the 1st year my stuff was in like Australia and London and Mexico, and this and that, and I was like, and then Brazil from Europe.
Amanne: Yeah.
Pam: India. I have people who took my stuff to India. It's like literally, everywhere. I was like this.
Lina: This is awesome. That's awesome. Okay, ran another random question for you. Have you collaborated with your mom intentionally where she actually knows.
Pam: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, no dude, my mom, my mom, I keep calling her my like. She's my little laborer. My mom is my favorite laborer. I'm waiting for her to retire so she could just come permanently and help me all the time, because, it's funny, because when I started doing all of this, my mom's gotten really into it. And so she helps me with my pieces sometimes. And then earlier this year, when I started doing the actual on the piece, like the with.
Lina: And then.
Pam: Embroidery. Floss, my mom was like, let me see my mom. She's I won't say how old she is, because she'll slap me, but she has not picked up a needle in a long time, because she's tired and she can't see, and she's like I need the glasses. If she bought it for me, so she's just like I want to stitch, too. So she started pulling out all of her old stuff and like the pulling out of her old stuff usually will consist of. Just she's got a drawer of all like the pillowcases and the pieces, and her tit is told, and like whatever she'll pull out we look at. But she started pulling out her old work
Pam: and hurled threads and looked at. Why don't you do this? And why do you do that? So now it's become like a like. I just did a charcuterie board with a Roman pattern on it, and she's been telling me to do that. Do the pomegranate do the pomegranate for like maybe 6 or 8 months, and I was like, I don't feel like it. I don't feel like it. So it's like she's constantly pushing like pieces on me, or
Pam: you know your Zeitunza sets are good, but you should reshape them to be this size, or you should do this. So she's very much like constantly in my ear. She's been telling me to do Feng for 3 years. I have not done Feng. I've made cacao cups for somebody else, but I never did the Feng with the threes on it, and in the last year I've had
Pam: 4 coffee companies approached me, going, do you do? Fine? And I'm like.
Lina: Oh, that would be so.
Pam: My mom is, gonna slap me if I didn't do. And then like, lose all these possible customers. So yeah, so like, my mom is definitely like won a huge influence. And she has been, I mean, I wouldn't have been so exposed to tatreez or so into it were it not for her, and like all this stuff growing up and like my pillow next to me, which one of the many that I've stolen from her, it's like
Pam: all of them like my pillows. Her pillows were the 1st influence for my work, and they were the inspiration, for why? I was always obsessed with, and her clothes and her this and her that. So it's all. She's always been there through all of it, and then now more so. She's just like. Don't do this or don't do that, and I'm like, what color should I make this pattern? And she'll just be like you. Don't you don't like? I'll tell you what colors to do, because you're doing the pattern with the colors wrong. And I'm like.
Pam: Okay, mom, I'm like, Oh.
Lina: Yo, mama deserves a cut. Mama deserves a cut row.
Pam: Totally yes, totally.
Amanne: I love it, I love it. I love, I love a sassy Palestinian mom.
Pam: Indefinitely is.
Amanne: Special.
Pam: She's she's earning the sass.
Pam: Okay.
Amanne: Too funny. Okay? So
Amanne: I want to ask you because you've taken Tetris, you've incorporated Tetris into a different art medium. If somebody you know Palestinian or an admirer of Tetris, but Palestinian. If somebody Palestinian wanted to take Tatreez and incorporate it into any different type of art form, like what tips or recommendations like what words of wisdom would you have for them?
Pam: Just do it.
Pam: This is, do it. So
Pam: I hesitated for a long time in like the. And this is kind of just a me thing, not specifically with the threes, but with everything, is the I have an idea. And I
Pam: think about how it will play out. I think about the technique. I think about how I might do it over and over and over again. So it took me a really long time to even try
Pam: to do it. And then I'm like, Oh, that technique didn't work. Well, now I'm going to sit for a really long time and think about the other one. So it took probably 2 years for me to even just apply. And then I was like, Oh, my God, this is great like, let's go! But the minute I did it.
Pam: It took off and like even so now it's for me it used to be like I won't say embarrassing, but there's this discomfort that a lot of us have with like attention and praise, and whatever that may be, we'll leave that for our therapists. But, like the last couple of shows I did. People walk up and they're like.
Pam: Oh, my God, wow! Or like the I knew you were, gonna be here. And like, that's why I came kind of a thing, and so it's become like I was like, I'm the cool, like my 1st Palestine day I did 3 years ago.
Pam: Is it 3. I don't know. 3 or 4 years ago I don't know what day it is anymore, but it was the 1st time I had, like
Pam: a whole collection of things. And I had this big old 8 foot table, and I was like, Let's go and showed it off to my people. So it was like Palestine day like this is where you're either like you're cool, or people think you suck and
Pam: I didn't even have time to drink my water or eat my food that day because I was so popular, and somebody walked up to me and said, You know you're the cool booth right? And I was like
Pam: cool. It took. It took me a few decades to get there. But like I'm finally cool. So it's like there's like, it's basically if anybody wants to try to threes or anything else like whether Palestinian or not. Like, I would say, if they're Palestinian, try Palestinian stuff, if you're not Palestinian, go find your own. But like.
Pam: try it like, just, and do it. You have nothing to lose. Because, yeah.
Pam: what do you have to lose?
Amanne: There you go!
Pam: The cool table, join the.
Amanne: Don't worry about, and just.
Lina: Exactly.
Lina: I'm taking.
Amanne: I'm taking that pam. I'm taking that pool table.
Pam: Do it.
Lina: That's amazing. That's amazing. Okay? Then, on the other round, what did you learn from Tatreez what has Tatreez taught you.
Pam: Oh, God, patience! That's the 1st word like, which is funny, because I lack patience, absolutely like I'm having anxiety all over the freaking place and
Pam: It's definitely taught me patience and to accept imperfections.
Lina: Hmm.
Pam: So like my 1st pieces like if there was one dot out of place, that thing was getting washed, or it was getting sold at a discount, or I was just going to give it away. Because and I've had to remind myself like this is handmade. You are not perfect. Things happen. Of course, if something cracks.
Pam: I inherit it or my mom gets it. My mom just got like 5 cracked coasters. I was like, Mom, they're functional enjoy. But yeah, it's the embrace, the imperfections. Let them be. People still appreciate them at a discount, of course, sometimes, but depending on what it is. And so
Pam: yeah, it's patience. Accept the imperfections, go with the freaking flow
Pam: like a kill might explode all of your stuff that you just spent a thousand hours on and like, just
Pam: take a deep breath, keep on going. It happens it happens.
Lina: It happens.
Pam: It's happened.
Amanne: I I learned I took a ceramics class which I suck at ceramics, but I did take a class, and that was like the 1st thing they said they're like, look it, it's gonna happen eventually.
Pam: To happen, and you don't suck at ceramics. You just didn't have the right teacher, and or did not practice enough. But.
Amanne: Girl. I have long nails. That was my biggest problem.
Pam: Look. I've taught classes with girls who have long nails, and there are ways around it. It's.
Amanne: I'm gonna take one of your classes.
Pam: Come over.
Amanne: Down to try. I'm down to try all right done, and done.
Pam: We'll we'll do a long nail wheel throwing tutorial.
Amanne: I love it.
Pam: This is. This is how we get famous. Amanda.
Amanne: There we go! There we go! We'll we'll make like a Tiktok series of it. Everyone can just laugh at me making a fool of myself. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Pam. This was amazing to have you on, amazing to chat about, always love hearing about different people's journeys, and especially like how you incorporate that these into different art forms. Where can people find you if they want to see your work? If they want to buy your work. Where can the people find you?
Pam: That's hilarious. So I have a website called studio.com. I'm on Instagram at Studio right now. My Instagram looks more like a oh, my God, the world is on fire and a sprinkle of pottery in it. But the pottery is there. And sometimes I update my website. I did just update my website an hour before talking to you guys.
Amanne: Oh, okay. All right.
Pam: Hopefully, it'll still be that way when this airs. But but the website is there, and there's a gallery. And if anybody wants to see my stuff and wants to buy things that aren't in stock. Just shoot me a message with a screenshot and be like I saw this pot, and I like it. Do you have one? It's usually.
Amanne: You do commission work.
Pam: I do?
Amanne: Commission.
Pam: I do. Yeah.
Amanne: Okay. Cool.
Pam: Yeah, honestly, like I used to shy away from them. So I kind of go back and forth. But I've learned that the Commission sometimes. It's a new challenge, and it brings on new ideas for me. And so.
Lina: And.
Pam: When I've got time for them. Yeah, they're fun.
Amanne: Okay? Alright. Well, then, if you have an idea, reach out to Pam, if you see something you like, and it's not on the website reach out to Pam, and we'll.
Pam: Just reach out to Pam. She's got.
Amanne: She has a payoff we'll make sure to link everything. But thank you so much for being here.
Pam: Thank you.
Amanne: Yeah.
Amanne: How's a great time chatting with you? Thank you.
Pam: Thanks, Amani. Thanks, Lena. We'll have a good day.
Amanne: Thanks, love.
Lina: Okay. So Pam mentioned one of the plan. One of her planters, I believe, and it's called. I wear my heart on my face, and like the story behind that. And so I just went on her website. I think I'll go place my order right now because her stuff is so gorgeous. Oh, my goodness! And I.
Amanne: And it's very affordable.
Lina: Yes. Oh, my God, it's beautiful, it's absolutely beautiful. So I don't know this and this, this, our podcast, is so much, fun, we get to talk to the coolest people.
Amanne: Oh, I'm glad you and I are having fun.
Lina: How did I?
Amanne: What else but.
Lina: So.
Amanne: We're having a good old time. So.
Lina: That's all that matters.
Amanne: It really is but no, yeah, I'm really glad that we finally were able to get Pam on the podcast we didn't talk about it when we were recording with her, but, like I well, I guess we kind of briefly mentioned it. But I met Pam a little over a year ago. I actually like I had seen her work online before I met her. And I I didn't.
Amanne: I don't even think I realized that she was in the Bay Area at the time. But you know, the algorithm brought us together. I was like following her work. I was like, okay ceramics with the trees. That's dope like. I said. I tried a 6 week ceramics for us. I was so bad like I was so bad. Yeah, like.
Amanne: but it was fun like I still have fun. Anyways. I started following her, and then I saw that she was going to be at a market in the town that I live in, and I was like, Wait, what? And so I specifically went to see her pieces in person because I wanted to see them in person before I bought them.
Amanne: And we just started talking. And of course, because we're both in the Bay Area. We have, like all these mutual friends and all that. So it's it's always nice to connect with people in the community, like locally in the community, to who practice deputies in different mediums, which is what I really really love about her work. You know, as we know, I've been dimming my toes here and there with different mediums, but I love how she brings it to life with ceramics, and I know there's
Amanne: I've seen some other people do it, but I've definitely I love the way cam kind of like approaches it.
Amanne: All right, of course. Thank you all so much for listening to Tatreez Talk. We want to hear about your Tatreez journey. Share your stories with us at tatreeztalk@gmail.com. And we might even have you on an upcoming episode. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite listening platform, and be sure to leave us a 5 star review. You can follow me @minamanne and Lina at @linasthobe, and of course you can follow the pod @tatreeztalk. We'll talk to you soon.
